GPU Prices Soar as Bitcoin Miners Buy Up Hardware To Build ...
GPU-Based Mining And Mining Programs - All About Bitcoin ...
Mining Cryptocurrency at Home. Is it worth it? – BitcoinVideo
Debunking myths about mining and GPUs
E: Going to bed, will contribute more tomorrow. Thanks for the discussion! Myth: Mining is more stressful than gaming. Fact: It depends. During the old days, this was plausible, because older GPUs (Pre-polaris) are/were bottlenecked by core clock when mining the most profitable coins. Thus, miners overclocked and overvolted these cards quite frequently, especially with cheap electricity. This meant that those cards were often run hot, pushing the limits and stressing VRM and fans quite a lot. Nowadays, ethash (Ethereum) is the most profitable algorithm for AMD cards 99% of the time, and newer GPUs (Polaris) are limited by memory bandwidth and latency. Miners can underclock core to the low 1100MHz range before seeing performance drop. To save power, miners who know what they are doing also undervolt, since it is no longer necessary to sustain a high core clock. Thus, it is quite feasible to run polaris cards below 70C at a reasonable fan speed. However, dual mining (mining more than one coin at once) does increase power consumption by up to 20%, and there are also idiots who run their polaris cards OCd while mining. With the exception of a few idiots, miners treat their Polaris GPUs pretty much the same; that is, running underclocked and undervolted 24/7 with a memory strap mod and mem OC. On the other hand, former gaming cards are highly variable in use cases. Some gamers leave their cards at stock settings, some undervolt, and some OC and/or overvolt. Most of the time, these cards are thermal cycled far more often than mining cards, which is known to weaken solder. Another thing to consider is that manufacturers have learned (somewhat) from their mistakes of putting shit tier fans in GPUs, and many fans on modern GPUs are ball bearing and/or swappable. Even some budget cards, such as MSI Armor, use decent ball bearing fans. Bottom line: the risk of buying mined Polaris cards is not as high as the risk of buying older mined cards. I would not be against buying mined polaris cards, but it's not necessarily better than buying a gamer's card instead. At the end of the day, it depends more on how the owner treated it than what they used it for. Myth: GPUs are obsolete because of FPGAs and ASICs Fact: Mostly false. Older algorithms such as scrypt and SHA256 (lite/doge/feathebitcoin etc) are no longer feasible to mine with GPUs, but there have been multiple algorithms since then that are built to deter ASICs; most of the time it is done by making it memory-hard because designing an ASIC with high memory throughput is considerably more expensive to design and manufacture. Many devs prefer their blockchain to be ASIC resistant to avoid the concentration of power problem that Bitcoin is having nowadays, where a giant, near-monopolistic ASIC manufacturer (Bitmain) is causing a lot of (subjective) controversy. Blockchains based on ethash (Ethereum and its forks), equihash (Zcash and its forks) and cryptonight (Monero and forks) are some examples, but there are scores of other shitcoins and a few other algos that are GPU dominant. It is almost impossible that there will be another ASIC takeover, which is what was responsible for the stop in GPU demand in the bitcoin and litecoin days. Bottom line: ASICs no longer threaten GPU miners, or the demand for GPUs Myth: Ethereum switching to Proof of Stake will kill mining soon Fact: Doomsayers have been preaching about proof of stake since late 2015. It has always been "coming soon." The fact is, the Ethereum roadmap goes from proof of work (mining) -> Casper (mining + PoS) -> Metropolis (PoS). Currently, the release date of Casper is not even announced yet, nor is it being tested in a (public) testnet. Proof of Stake might one day take over, but mining is here to stay for a while yet. Another thing to consider is that there are tons of other GPU mineable blockchains, and although Ethereum is biggest, it is certainly feasible that mining stays profitable even after Ethereum goes PoS (if it ever does). However, it is possible that profits will be low enough to discourage new miners. Bottom line: It's very unlikely. E: I screwed up the roadmap; here is a better source than me with some interesting information: https://www.ethnews.com/ethereums-vitalik-buterin-gives-keynote-on-metropolis Myth: The current Ethereum demand spike is a bubble Opinion: Honestly, I don't know. I would not be surprised if stricter regulations on ICOs come sooner or later, which would fuck with Ether prices. There is also the inherent volatility of cryptocurrencies. However, it is also possible that blockchain technology continues to gain traction; that is, the price could just as easily go up as go down. Although it's fun to read about other people's opinions, only time-travelling wizards can tell you when it will become economical again to upgrade your poor HD5770. Bottom line: No one knows. Myth: Miners will "steal" all the RX Vegas Fact: Only a reckless miner would buy Vegas on release, since mining performance is not known. In fact, it is possible that it can't mine at all (or at some stupidly low speed) until devs add support to existing miners. It would be even more reckless than gamers who buy without seeing benchmarks, since at least gamers can expect the games to actually run. It's also not necessarily the case that Vega will be good once miners do add support. Maybe there will be enough reckless miners to affect supply, maybe not. Of course, it is possible that miners will deplete the supply after it is demonstrated that Vega is good for mining. Bottom line: Most miners won't preorder, but it's possible that a significant number will. E: Important to remember that even if mining demand isn't high, doesn't mean that supply will be plentiful. Myth: Nvidia cards SUCK at mining Fact: Mostly false. They USED to suck in the old pre-Maxwell days, but now they are actually more efficient at mining Ethereum and Zcash compared to AMD cards, even after both cards are undervolted. The flipside is that they (used to) cost more for the equivalent hashrate. For reference, my old 5xRX470 rig drew just under 800W when mining ETH only and hashed at 150MH/s. My current 6xGTX1060 rig draws just over half of that (<450W) and hashes at about 135MH/s. Certainly not as good in raw performance, but they are viable nonetheless, especially given the AMD GPU shortage. In fact, Nvidia cards (1060 and especially 1070) are becoming scarce as well. Bottom line: Nvidia is still the underdog when it comes to mining, but far from irrelevant nowadays. Myth: 4GB cards will be obsolete for mining soon Fact: FALSE. The Ethereum DAG is not even 3GB yet, and won't be for a few months. The recent reports of 4GB Polaris cards slowing down soon due to DAG size is caused by limited TLB capacity, not VRAM restrictions. Polaris cards will still be able to mine ETH forks such as Expanse and UBIQ without diminished speed, and even if they are used to mine ETH, it is not that much of a performance hit at first. It would certainly not make polaris useless or undesirable for mining anytime soon. Tahiti GPUs already suffer from this issue and Hawaii is the most resistant to this issue. Have not benched Nvidia at a later epoch. Myth: Creating miner-bashing posts on Reddit will help alleviate the GPU supply problem Fact: False, you are simply giving cryptocurrencies and mining more exposure to the general public, increasing demand. Myth: Mining-specific GPUs will solve the shortage problems Opinion: There's not enough info to tell yet, but I am a skeptic for the following reasons. First, no display limits the resale value of the card for obvious reasons. IMO, the whole point of crypto mining from a profitability standpoint is to have a hedge against coin volatility (hardware is still worth something if the coin crashes). Otherwise it is much less effort to just buy and hold the coin. If the hardware is useless without demand from other (significant) sources, then it doesn't make much sense to buy it unless the price is extremely low. I'm sure that cost-downing the PCB and warranty will make for a cheap card, but it has to be extremely cheap and plentiful in supply, or else miners will buy whatever they can get. I could envision "failed" chips (not meeting spec of consumer editions) being stuck in miner cards, but I doubt there are enough to meet demand without ramping up production as a whole, which carries its own risks. I guess that it would help a little, but probably not solve the problems. Alternatively, since modern GPUs are bottlenecked by RAM when mining, it might be enticing to miners to have the fastest (GDDR5) RAM on the market (probably the 9gbps chips from the 1060 6G 9gbps edition, although I don't have one to test). However, my previous points still apply; buying such a card without display outputs carries a big risk. Bottom line: It's not a great idea, unless they are super cheap or use really good RAM. Hope this helped; if you have any further questions I will try to answer them. I'm both a gamer and miner who uses both AMD and Nvidia roughly equally and don't favor one group over another. I've mined and gamed on all high end AMD GPUs since Tahiti (except Tonga) and all Pascal cards except 1050ti.
I've had enough of my rx 480 screwing me over... upgrading to a GTX 1060 or perhaps something else?
After two full days of attempting to fix my PC, I've come to the seeming conclusion that it's a hardware problem. Repeated and consistent BSODs, typically atikmpag.sys, though sometimes IRQL or other video related ones are occuring. It's not software - three times I've safe-mode DDU clean uninstalled AMD drivers and reinstalled the drivers. I even did a clean windows install. It's not the motherboard or CPU - the machine runs fine with the graphics card removed. It's not the cable or monitor - BSODs occur on every monitor I try, HDMI, VGA and DVI. It's not the registry - I increased tdrdelay to 8 seconds and then 16 seconds and it still occurs. It's probably not the power supply - I've undervolted and underclocked the card only to experience BSODs still. As I narrow it down forum post by forum post, I've come to the conclusion: the rx480 is a POS. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and hop over to Nvidia's well supported 1060s, which since the bitcoin crash are more affordable than ever. What is your intended use for this build? The more details the better. Gaming and browsing, no weird video/streaming shit. Here's the games I (might) play, graded in general by demand on the GPU:
Company of Heroes 2
League of Legends
Ass Creed Origins/Ultimate
If gaming, what kind of performance are you looking for? (Screen resolution, framerate, game settings) 60fps minimum on the games I play. As you can see only a few of these games are particularly demanding (the last few), and I'm perfectly comfortable playing on low/medium settings to achieve 60fps for that. The rx 480 in the early part of its life could sometimes manage these (and to be sure, it was also dependent on the rather shitty optimisation of PUBG/GTA), but can no way achieve them now. So just having that consistency is enough for me. What is your budget (ballpark is okay)? Already have the pieces. No more than £250, but I see 1060s available for around £140. Therefore it's more about value for money and long-term considerations than the money itself right now. In what country are you purchasing your parts? UK PCPartPicker Part List
Current parts ^ Provide any additional details you wish below. So the question I've really got is: based on the info provided so far (500W power supply, decent RAM, decent processor, somewhat limited gaming), should I play it safe with the GTX 1060? Or is there something more suitable for me, like a 1080TI? I'm not familiar with the Nvidia series, so any help is greatly welcome. Thanks.
Clearing up some confusion about cryptocurrencies, mining and when prices will go down.
I spend my last 6 months in a lot of cryptocurrency Reddits and informed myself about the topic. I read a lot of misinformation in the non crypto Reddits every day and because of that I am making this post to clear some things up and explain everything. Sorry for the wall of text, there will be a tldr; at the end
How do mining profits work?
The Ethereum network pays out people who mine for them in Ethereum. The total daily amount of Ethereum giving out is more or less constant for now which means that if only a single person mines he gets everything, if a million person mine with the same hash power behind them everyone gets 1/1,000,000 of the reward, the reward itself does NOT increase, only the price of the ETH can increase. Normally people would buy more GPUs until they reach a point of only a small profit compared to the energy costs and it would a reach a point of balance between total network hashrate and profit in USD (like it was in the last 3-4 years). The problem is that the price spiked multiple times way too fast and GPU manufacturing can't keep up which causes GPU prices to spike and delays this point of balance which results in MASSIVE profits for everyone who mines because the hashing power "supply" is capped. We are talking about 100$ a month with a SINGLE RX 480 right now (80$+ with power cost included).
When will it stop?
Actually quite soon (yay). This is sadly a truth that not many miners know of (not to mention some are delusional... you will find them in the comments) and very few people think about. Even the popular Youtube channels have no idea about this. Before I come to the end of GPU mining first there are some numbers.
How many GPUs are out there and how much are the total profits?
The current network hashrate is about 191TH/s and a total daily reward paid of 31,239,969$ in the last 24 hours. Because a single RX 480 gets about 28MH/s (pretty much average), we have about 6,821,428 GPUs mining ONLY Ethereum right now. If you every wondered how much money you need for a global GPU shortage the answer is about 30 million dollar daily.
Can you finally tell us when and how it stops? I want to play pubg!
Ok ok... the thing is the Ethereum network doesn't need your GPU power. It only uses it as a spam filter to make it harder to manipulate the network. You would need over 50% of the total hashrate to reliably fake transactions, think of it as a giant google captcha. You can easily replace that captcha with another one and this is exactly what Ethereum does in the near future. Proof of stake means instead of wasting GPU power you just stake your Ethereum and the more of your Ethereum you invest the more voting rights and rewards you get. If you are caught trying to cheat your whole money gets confiscated and donated to everyone else depending on their voting rights. Full proof of stake will probably be implemented late 2018 but just to be fair it already got delayed multiple times so there is no clear 100% date for it yet.
So... Ethereum fires all the miners, wont miners just mine something else?
This is where the misconception starts. There is actually a second point of balance in all of this. All cryptocurrencies will always divide all the hashing power between them until they all reach about the same profit (people always switch to what gives the most profit). It may seem like there are a lot of profitable cryptocurrencies to mine but that is actually an illusion. Many of the smaller coins would be unprofitable after a few thousand GPUs because their total $ reward giving out daily is pretty small. The thing is nobody mines something that gives less profit so they switch. To sum it up Ethereum is basically the minimum payment job and everyone who goes below that wont find anyone willing to do the job until they get more profitable than Ethereum. Now what happens if 6.8 MILLION RX 480 are jobless after a single update? They will all start mining something else. The problem is Ethereum has a GIANT majority in hashrate and all other mineable cryptocurrencies combined can't be profitable after Ethereum switches even if their prices spike by 10x.
It can't be that bad...
OH HELL YEAH IT IS THAT BAD! Every heard of Monero? It is the cryptocurrency that caused the RX Vega shortage. Any idea on how much daily rewards they give out? A giant 1,504,249$ in the last 24 hours. Yes that is 20.7 times less and we are talking about the second biggest mineable coin out there. As soon as Ethereum fires all the miners everything will collapse and profit will turn NEGATIVE for a while unless you have free power. Q4 2018 is the end of mining for probably ever. Because the Ethereum code is open source and everyone can use it there will most likely be more coins that follow proof of stake after that (there already are some that already have it) so mining will most likely never come back.
Why the switch to proof of stake?
There are many benefits. It consumes A LOT less power, it is most likely faster and people who hodl Ethereum get more Ethereum for just having it. Free interest rate hype! But the most important thing about this is that miners control the currency and every update to it. Sadly they don't have the same interests as people who want the crypto to succeed and improve. For example Bitcoin's block size is kept at 1mb even though increasing it was always the plan since 2009. Why? It's very simple. You can only fit X amount of transactions in 1mb and if it gets more than that only people who pay more get their transactions in faster which means more fews are being paid to the miners. While they make a fortune the currency suffers with spikes to 50$ for a SINGLE transaction (currently it's 18$). If the power goes to the ones having the currency they are directly interested in the well being of the currency which is better for everyone.
So... what does all of this actually mean?
We will get the biggest GPU mass sell off in the history of the technology itself. I wouldn't be surprised to find a RX 480 for 100$ in December. Miners already made the price of the GPU back multiple times, they don't care about the price if they get at least something. This will be a GREAT time for buying GPUs. It already happened once in 2013? when ASIC miners got introduced for Bitcoin mining and all R9 290(x) got dumped on the market because they went from awesome miners to completely useless overnight. This time will be much bigger though because of the sheer amount of GPUs used for mining.
AMD's and Nvidia's part in this
AMD did ramp up production last time with the r9 290(x) and got completely rekt. They couldn't sell the GPUs anymore and the used r9 290(x) were way too cheap to compete with. This time they are smarter and they just make as much as they can without investing too much while basically selling everything they produce for almost a whole year. Nvidia is about the same right now, they are just making bank without risking much. If you ever wondered why the 1070ti exists, it is basically a mining only GPU. The 1080 is horrible for Ethereum mining because of GDDR5X timings but the 1070ti has the same GPU power with GDDR5 non x. They only made this for more profit when selling to miners.... yet no reviewer called them out for this to my knowledge.
GPU prices will crash hard and the used market will have laughable low prices. These GPUs actually run undervolted, underclocked and at a low temperature the whole time because the bottleneck is the memory speed which means they are in EXCELLENT condition. Maybe their BIOS got flashed for better memory timing but you can just switch to the second BIOS or flash it back to normals. These will the GREAT to buy. Note that r9 290(x) and 390(x) GPUs should be avoided because they have such an overkill memory setup that their GPU core is the bottleneck (-> overclocked, overvolted and run at 90c+).
How will Nvidia react?
Well they will have a problem. Nobody will buy a 1180 if they can get a GTX 1080 for 200$ compared to something like 600$. Especially if Nvidia releases the 1180 while mining is still a thing. I guess they will wait with the 1180 or release a 1280 shortly after mining died with a really competitive price (if AMD can't compete they will just compete with themself...). Just think of the GTX 970 which got released with a 299$ MSRP and got actually sold at that price!
This got way longer than expected... well I hope you learned something. Just comment if you want to correct something or have a question. Most of these are assumptions based on thinking so none of this has to happen but is in my opinion very likely to happen. tldr; Because Ethereum has almost all of the GPU power behind it and will fire all the miners in around Q4 2018 with the switch to proof of stake there will be a huge excess of GPU power and prices will crash hard. edit: if you only care about numbers and facts and want a better distinction between assumptions and facts read my other comment https://www.reddit.com/pcmasterrace/comments/7rqkmo/clearing_up_some_confusion_about_cryptocurrencies/dsyzg6b/
[Build Help] my first built PC: bitcoin rig two 7970s with occasional gaming
I'm building mainly a bitcoin mining rig with occasional gaming, and would love your help. I've never built a PC before but look forward to it! Two 7970s have been purchased for a total of $900 including tax because it was good sale. Now the rest I'd like lots of input to decide upon. I want it to last as long as possible. Am Canadian (in Toronto) and a student. Willing to put additional $600-$1100 max into rest, nothing else bought. The main thing is it will be running 24/7 at max settings, and would shut down mining for occasional gaming. A very knowledgable technician at TigerDirect gave me a great start but now I need to get more feedback. Looking for advice what to get, from where, and why. PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.
Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-06-06 09:32 EDT-0400
Run down: • COOLING? - air or liquid? - liquid is ruled out due to expense, since it's been explained to me it costs ~$600 for the assembly to liquid cool the cards directly. Seems pointless to get CPU cooling for the 1-10% time I'd use it for gaming. • MOBO? - this is the biggest part want help with. I have no concept how to select between the suggestions Sabertooth Z77 (Intel) or Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 (AMD). My understanding is the bus capacity is 16X for two cards is good just for gaming I'd do, otherwise wouldn't matter for bitcoin. I'm willing to invest an additional $100 above these if the quality of the parts will really last longer, but I don't want needless expense. • CPU? - i7 ruled out as unnecessary expense, I'd get i5 if Intel. AMD is more power-efficient, but for at least the next 6-12 months I won't care, my rent includes electricity. My understanding is any performance difference of i5 vs. i7 would be A) neglible at 15% improvement, and B) only for video editing which I'd only do a few hours per year max, or never. If I were to get an AMD, an AMD FX 8320 was suggested. It's 3.5 Ghz for $160. Need help choosing between AMD or Intel. OVERCLOCKING - Also note my friend is considering overclocking speed of cards, underclock memory, and overclock the core for me. • CROSSFIRE - desired. don't know much about. • POWER SUPPLY? - my understanding is Corsair is a good reliable brand, for a few bucks can get 3 years warrenty for over-the-counter. know there's 4-6 tiers like AX HX TX CX, was planning on getting cheapest CX unless I understand the expense is really justified. i'll stay away from no-name brands, but don't know others. Also dunno exactly about power consumption or margin of error. • CASE? - a case that fits, so please note the massive size of these cards, consumes 2 slots. Want lots of air cooling to mitigate costs. Aesthically also highly considering a plain white exterior to be painted... but the whole case is lowest priority for now, I want it mining bitcoin soon exposed directly to air for a short while, then can leisurely acquire case. • MEMORY? - 8 GB was suggested, Kingston, Hyperx 1600Ghz. no clue what matters here. • HARD DRIVE? - I want SSD, Samsung's 250 GB for $230 was suggested. I can use a spare regular harddrive to begin with to get started, add after. Have looked at TigerDirect and NewEgg, can also look at NCIX.
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